[NewCandle] Constrained hydrolysis

Sun Mar 4 21:48:40 EST 2007

Heyyo,

> I guess it must really be corroding!

*********Thats one of the possible odd things, at
least with the wadded up ropes of foil in distilled
water arrangement - the corrosion seems curiously
slow, although there is a heavy patina or scale of
dark grey "something" - presumably oxides or
hydroxides that forms on the Al.  The Al does appear
to thin eventually, and get more brittle too.

> How does the pH change as the foil dissolves?

*********In one run I made with the large plastic jug
/ Al foil coiled ropes, there was a general increase
in the pH, but it was also strangely minimal -
starting say at like 7.35, and peaking out at about
max bubble condition (around T+60 hours) at 7.65 or
something close to that.  I would have anticipated the
pH to be driven past 8 or 9 at least.
> 
> I presume this is what's happening, the Al
> is going into solution with generation of H2.

*******As have I assumed also.
> 
> I wonder if the diode action due to the oxide
> film plays a role? We studied corrosion of Al
> with those anodic experiments, but this
> way is much more subtle. 

**********There is a "Joe-ish" flavor to it, inasmuch
as there IS a considerable period of time (24 to 48
hours) before the effect really kicks in.  Then there
is the issue of vessel (glass versus PETE vs.
polycarbonate, etc)  Plus, for reasons I can only
speculate on, Sam Faile just gets his bubbles in about
half the time I do, using identical containers, foil,
etc.

> Have you been able to collect and analyze the
> gasses? 

*********No analysis yet, apart from igniting bubbles
with a lighter and they do go pop/bang.  This coming
week I want to to some water trap volumetric studies. 
My hunch is that even the strongest bubblers for the
moment are less than 1 slpm of gas evolution.  So
there is a gee whiz deceptive nature to it.  It
probably looks like its generating more gas than it
really is.

> I'll get a roll of foil and some water at
> the grocery store and give it a whirl. I
> think I need to see it to understand more.

**********That'd be neat.  I used a 50 ft. roll of
cheapo thin Al foil, pried the cardboard tube out
carefully, by dimpling it first, and used Kroger brand
distilled water in a 500ml poly graduated cylinder. 
When you add the water, about 50ml seems to wick into
the turns.  First bubble streams take off at about 48
hours for me.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
> [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf
> Of Nick Reiter
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 7:47 PM
> To: New energy for the new world.
> Subject: [NewCandle] Constrained hydrolysis
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Just when it seemed like aluminum - water hydrolysis
> was a fun but dead horse, something sort of novel
> got
> kicked onto the plate...
> 
> Still suspecting that the tight twisting and folding
> of aluminum foil had something to do with the
> healthy
> evolution of H2 from aluminum in distilled water,
> Sam
> Faile tried a novel variant.  Rather than shred the
> foil to get more surface area, or scrunch it tighter
> to make more creases and folds, Sam carefully
> removed
> the cardboard tube from a 200 ft roll of kitchen
> foil,
> and put the snugly would foil roll in a tall plastic
> container of distilled water.  It took a few minutes
> for the water to wick between the turns of
> foil...but
> within about 8 to 12 hours, Sam claimed the vessel
> was
> spouting bubble spurts of H2 with such vigor, that
> it
> was kicking water out onto the table.  Much more
> vigorous than previous passive Al-H20 hydrolysis
> rigs.
> 
> Earlier this week, I set one up too - putting about
> a
> 50 ft. roll in a 500ml plastic graduated cylinder
> with
> distilled H2O.  Mine took longer to kick in, about
> 48
> hours... but darn, if it isn't spouting some neat
> streams - nay geysers of bubbles.
> 
> So OK, the thought here is this.  In a snug roll of
> Al
> foil, you are setting up a lot of square footage of
> miniscule gap where maybe anywhere between 0 and 100
> microns might isolate some turns of the foil roll,
> making some regions where I would be sure that
> vacuum
> mode exclusion could be going on in a significant
> way.
> 
> What happens if you introduce a chemical or
> electrochemical reaction into a gap or planar region
> where you have significant vacuum mode exclusion
> possible?  Would electrolysis take more or less eV
> to
> initiate?  WOuld reactions take off quicker or be
> delayed?
> 
> This gets some wheels turning - maybe
> serendipitously.
> 
> I recall that Scott n' Hal's results when they were
> going for ground state modification in hydrogen in a
> slot orifice a few years ago were negative to
> inconclusive.  What about reactions in a "squeezed"
> zone..?
> 
> Chemistry in a very tight place...what sayeth the
> august minds of the group?
> 
> N
> 
> 
>  
>
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