[NewCandle] Measuring Half-Cell Charge

[Frederick Sparber]

I think it's the Helmholtz layer where the most significant charge is
going to be found, IE., immersing a metal in water spontaneously
sequester electrons from the
H2O oxygen, then the molecule's two  H atom's positive charges starts
the diffuse
layering.

Thiel and Madey's 1987 paper I pointed out earlier:

http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf

Goes into spontaneous auto-dissociation of water on metals, but I
didn't come across anything closely related to the Electrochemical
Capacitors discussed in
this article:

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm

They're both a wealth of information, but an experiment might be quicker.

Fred

On 9/11/07, Keith Nagel <NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com> wrote:
> I was sort of hoping that by _not_ adding the salt,
> we might be able to take advantage of that diffuse layer, which
> has far more capacity. Using an acid, as is typical in the
> supercap, the h+ ions are so small and mobile they just get
> right in there at the surface and completely compensate the charge on the electrode.
> Would the balance of energy stored between the two capacities
> shift towards the diffuse layer if we used pure water?
>
> Does Thiel offer any advice on this?
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
> [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Frederick Sparber
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:06 PM
> To: New energy for the new world.
> Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Measuring Half-Cell Charge
>
>
> Yes, the deeper layers add a series capacitance, but the electrophilic
> copper of the water-filled float draws electrons from the oxygen of
> the H2O drawn to it according to Thiel and her references that are
> unanimous on that point.
> I suppose the double layer might be formed between the two hydrogen
> atoms of the adsorbed H2O and any anions added by salt (or base) as
> you suggested.
>
> The voltage should be well below that required to pull any off an OH-
> or Cl- anions
> which suggests that to keep things simple rely on the water molecules stacking
> on their own without the need of a double layer beyond the OH- due to the
> normal autoionization of the water.
>
> Fred
>
> On 9/11/07, Keith Nagel <NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com> wrote:
> > OK, that was sort of my point, the green coating is a carbonate, not an oxide.
> >
> > About the second question, I'm not really sure. For reasons of conductivity
> > some salt is essential, but I realize that this is quite different and
> > we are trying to get a lot of charge...
> >
> > Here's a thought. One thing that always intrigued me about the double
> > layer capacity is that there are two double layers on each interface. The
> > close one that we have been referring to as the double layer, and a
> > diffuse distant one that we have not addressed. The latter has much more
> > capacity than the former, but it is in series with the former, so it
> > doesn't appear in the external measured capacity. But it is there.
> > Not sure about a ref ( I studied all this stuff before the internet
> > and have paper refs for all this ) but I'm sure little google
> > digging will turn up some info.
> >
> > You might look into it, it may alter your thinking about how to
> > do the experiment, and perhaps it relates to your thoughts about
> > the (questionable) wisdom of adding salts to the water.
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
> > [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Frederick Sparber
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 12:44 PM
> > To: New energy for the new world.
> > Subject: [NewCandle] Measuring Half-Cell Charge
> >
> >
> > First of all Keith, Copper Carbonate Hydroxide "Malachite" Cu2CO3(OH)2 is green.
> >
> > Hence the green patina on the Statue of Liberty.
> >
> > Patricia Thiel says there could be 10^15 water molecules per square cm
> > on a metal-water interface. If a major portion of these donate an
> > electron to the high work function "electron hungry" metal the
> > negative charge could go as high as
> > 10^-4 coulombs per cm^2.  Likely much less,however.
> >
> > It seems to me that adding a salt, base or acid would be counterproductive. No?
> >
> > Fred
> >
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