[NewCandle] Getting started with aluminum foil

[Keith Nagel]

Hi Nick,

All sounds OK but for one missing element. The rate of reaction
and hence power output, is proportional to temperature. Using
your model it is as if the resistor was nonlinear, like
an arc channel. The arc temp rises, its resistance lowers,
more current flows, causing more power to dissipate, further
raising the temp, etc etc. In the arc what limits the
current flow is the max current available from the power
supply. What limits the rise in the aluminum corrosion under this
runaway condition is the max water temp, 100C.

This feedback process requires a certain fixed level of
power output to overcome the losses and start the snowball
rolling. Our current tests all have lots of losses so
it takes quite a bit of reacting metal to get enough
heat to start the process. Using a vacuum flask will
help in this regard. So would heating the water initially.

Perhaps after I collect some hard data I can take a stab
at mathematically modelling the system. I predict it
will look a lot like the nonlinear arc process I describe
above, with the first notable difference being the
limiting conditions.

Does this make sense to you?

Last night I took my two small vacuum flasks and charged
them each with 200mL of salt solution. Into one was dropped a
4.2 sqr ft roll of foil. The other has no metal and serves
as a temp reference. We shall see what happens in the next
few days. It still is intriguing to me that the folded metal
roll I did a few days ago is reacting but not floating.
I think this is an important geometric consideration; aside
of the reaction rate test I initially designed for this experiment.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
[mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Nick Reiter
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:32 AM
To: New energy for the new world.
Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Getting started with aluminum foil


Hi Keith and all,

Thanks for the thoughts re: my dad.  I appreciate it.

You wrote:


> Why not? What in my mind is causing runaway in your large
> experiments is the fact that enough heat is being
> generated
> to outstrip the losses of the container. It's then just
> a matter of time before temps rise to boiling.

***********Well, I had informally come to model it as a heat source of a
certain total power output ( x calories per cm2 of foil turn, OR conversely
x calories per gram of contributing foil.)  As I presume you do too.
However I had simply extended my model of the total system heat dissipation
to include the water and plastic bucket material, both of which have a
finite thermal conductivity or insulating value.  So in that sense, lets say
you have a 10 ohm resistor with 10 amps flowing through it.  The resistor is
dissipating 1000 watts, and if suspended in a medium, will come to a
terminal temperature X.  If you have 10 of these suspended near each other,
they will be kicking out a total of 10kW.  Now if you increase the volume,
mass, and dissipative surface area of the vessel these are in
proportionally, then they ought not to get much warmer than the single
resistor.  However if you pack em into the same vessel as one alone was in,
then my prediction
 would be that the resistor pile would have a higher terminal temperature.
Maybe I fell victim to a faulty line of thought.  Regardless of any of
this - a vacuum vessel / calorimeter would obviously render any such
argument void.  And so thus, you should get some good data.

The other potential mechanism for a greater T rise with increased mass would
possibly invoke the annular geometry of the roll turns, and possibly some
ill defined (for me sorry to say) focusing and reflection of radiation and
conducted energy to the middle of a roll.

Good luck!

n


>
> I have a small pair of thermos's that I have used for
> calorimetery; I'll try one today. If I _can't_ get this
> to work at small scale we'll know something special is
> happening at large scale. These units are quite small,
> designed for lunch boxes.
>
> My safety concern about this is simply the H2 gas. It
> pools
> on the ceilings and can ignite with unfortunate results.
> What I need here is a fume hood. That said, I'm sure I
> could do these small scale experiments in the garage now
> that I've had some experience with them. I was also
> worried
> about free chlorine gas, a big no-no with hydrogen, but
> my nose detected no such problem. That combo will
> spontaneously
> explode.
>
> K.
>
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>





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